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Old April 28th, 2005, 08:16 PM   #1
jaransonT3
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Thought I would start a thread for composite fabrication, instead of continuing to hijack one. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]

"Fiberglass" is really a very misused term. The glass fiber is actually only one part of the material that is commonly referred to as "fiberglass". The other important part is the resin (whether it is polyester or epoxy or something else).

Heck, I have even heard carbon fiber reinforced composites referred to as "carbon fiberglass". Makes no sense. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]

Anyway, I have a bunch of composites info on my site and really like talking about composite fabrication and would be happy to try and answer questions about it. Check it out here...

jaransonT3 Composites info

I built a carbon fiber composite engine cover for 1slo3's Notch Speedster (yes the pink and teal car [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img] ) and Brian has a bunch of good pics of the process on his website.

Carbon fiber composite engine cover

I would like to see what others are doing with composites on their rides.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 06:43 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaransonT3@Apr 28 2005, 08:16 PM
Thought I would start a thread for composite fabrication, instead of continuing to hijack one. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]

Okay, here's your first question. When you trim a finished part, what should you do to the cut edge?

For instance, does it need a gel coat layer, or can you just prime it and go to paint?

My concern is that an exposed edge will be more prone to delamination and then to moisture absorption.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 07:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by carcentric+Apr 29 2005, 10:43 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(carcentric @ Apr 29 2005, 10:43 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jaransonT3@Apr 28 2005, 08:16 PM
Thought I would start a thread for composite fabrication, instead of continuing to hijack one. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]

Okay, here's your first question. When you trim a finished part, what should you do to the cut edge?

For instance, does it need a gel coat layer, or can you just prime it and go to paint?

My concern is that an exposed edge will be more prone to delamination and then to moisture absorption.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]
Yup, cut edges are a problem area. Even drilled holes. Any time you expose the interface between the fiber and the resin you are giving easier access to moisture absorption. BTW, the moisture absorption would be first....which leads to delamination.

Anyway, the best thing to do is mix up a little bit of resin and paint the cut edges with it. If you don't have resin, any good paint sealer will do the trick. I have also been real happy with POR15 and composites. It is thin enough to wick into all the nooks and crannies and seal everything up.

Gel coat is actually a paint that is put into the mold before making the part. It becomes part of the part during the molding process and gives you a pre-finished part right out of the mold.

There is a bunch of good technical info about composites here....

NetComposites.com
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Old April 29th, 2005, 09:39 AM   #4
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jaraNson (haha big N)

i am amazed at how much knowledge you have!! Im half way through part 1....whens part 2 gunna be finished?? Im really interested because im prob going to make some fiberglass parts for my notch. I'll be keeping you in mind and looking for help. -JustinD
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Old April 29th, 2005, 09:43 AM   #5
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John, please espouse the history of your employment to the fellow volksrodders... you get to play with some pretty fascinating stuff and it is actually cool to see someone using their edumacation in the field they studied in [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img]
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Old April 29th, 2005, 09:44 AM   #6
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okay, question.

Whats the weight of a normal Type 3 front hood:

Weight of a Type 3 front hood made outta Glass Fiber & Resin (see, im learning)

Weight of a type3 front hood made outta carbon fiber


im sorta looking for a comparison, sorta ball park figures. Thanks- JustinD
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Current Project: 2017cc w/ aj simms 40x35 heads, web 218, cb super race crank 78mm, cb supercase, 46mm aj simms kadrons, 1.25 rockers, aircooled SLR'd lifters.

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Old April 29th, 2005, 09:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by vwcalbug@Apr 29 2005, 09:44 AM
okay, question.

Whats the weight of a normal Type 3 front hood:

Weight of a Type 3 front hood made outta Glass Fiber & Resin (see, im learning)

Weight of a type3 front hood made outta carbon fiber


im sorta looking for a comparison, sorta ball park figures. Thanks- JustinD
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
Dude, what are you getting me into? What are you planning in that little newbie head of yours???
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Old April 29th, 2005, 09:52 AM   #8
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well, i can give some non specific answers based on a race notch that went to c/f from glass...

original panel weight savings on the race glass from metal was 25%... now remember, race glass panels are usually lighter than street use pieces. okay. now, the Dan Lawson drag notch went from a 'glass front hood, rear fenders and engine cover/fin to c/f in the same thicknesses and lost an additional 75lbs! oh, and it is much less prone to deflection at 140mph!
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Old April 29th, 2005, 10:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotrodheb+Apr 29 2005, 09:50 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hotrodheb @ Apr 29 2005, 09:50 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-vwcalbug@Apr 29 2005, 09:44 AM
okay, question.

Whats the weight of a normal Type 3 front hood:

Weight of a Type 3 front hood made outta Glass Fiber & Resin (see, im learning)

Weight of a type3 front hood made outta carbon fiber


im sorta looking for a comparison, sorta ball park figures. Thanks- JustinD
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
Dude, what are you getting me into? What are you planning in that little newbie head of yours???
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
[/b][/quote]



hahahaha, thats fucking funny....im glad im scaring you...i think that means we are both going ot be challenged and have fun!!

honestly though, im thinking fiberglass bumpers, blades. Depending on weight savings, it would be cool to run a decklid and hood in glass fiber or carbon fiber...to save weight. I want to get as much performance outta my 2017 as possible!! Besides it would be a GREAT skill to learn.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1slo3@Apr 29 2005, 09:52 AM
well, i can give some non specific answers based on a race notch that went to c/f from glass...

original panel weight savings on the race glass from metal was 25%... now remember, race glass panels are usually lighter than street use pieces. okay. now, the Dan Lawson drag notch went from a 'glass front hood, rear fenders and engine cover/fin to c/f in the same thicknesses and lost an additional 75lbs! oh, and it is much less prone to deflection at 140mph!
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
geez man....how much does a stock front hood weight on a type 3?? Im just trying to get an idea of how much weight i can actually shave off by using C/F or G/F..

Thanks-JustinD
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Have it built out to the pistons and cylinders, ready for heads
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Old April 29th, 2005, 10:05 AM   #10
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stocker hood can't weigh more than 25 lbs... so glass is probably 20 (btw, you can't get a glass hood alone (one piece front end)) so c/f would be around 15 i think...


some of the aftermarket fiberglass rear fenders actually weigh more than the stock sheetmetal! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eek1.gif[/img]
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Old April 29th, 2005, 10:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by vwcalbug@Apr 29 2005, 09:44 AM
okay, question.

Whats the weight of a normal Type 3 front hood:

Weight of a Type 3 front hood made outta Glass Fiber & Resin (see, im learning)

Weight of a type3 front hood made outta carbon fiber


im sorta looking for a comparison, sorta ball park figures. Thanks- JustinD
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
Rules of Thumb

For an equivalent stiffness design (most common since designing for stiffness usually results in a 4X increase in strength), you can expect...

20-30% weight savings for Glass Composites
50-60% weight savings for Carbon Composites

It will be hard for a home fabricator to realize the upper limits of these savings since it requires good tooling, higher consolidation pressures and better control of the resin/fiber ratios. Also for the carbon stuff, an equivalent stiffness design for sheetmetal parts results in a pretty thin panel. Thinner than is practical for a home fabricator to try to make. A home fabbed panel will be thicker than necessary resulting in a much stiffer panel than the sheet metal. This is what 1slo3 mentioned about the reduced deflection at 140mph. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old April 29th, 2005, 10:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by vwcalbug@Apr 29 2005, 10:02 AM
Im just trying to get an idea of how much weight i can actually shave off by using C/F or G/F..

Thanks-JustinD
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
Not as much as we can save by chopping the roof off and getting rid of the side and rear glass! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img]

Just kidding, why would anyone do that to a notch! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif[/img]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
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Old April 29th, 2005, 10:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotrodheb@Apr 29 2005, 10:08 AM
Not as much as we can save by chopping the roof off and getting rid of the side and rear glass! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img]

Just kidding, why would anyone do that to a notch! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Idunno.gif[/img]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
not anyone i know! btw, my car weighs in 300lbs lighter than stock without the top and glass and 15" of pan... but it would be less if i didn't have the runners under the car, the 6 point rollbar and such. up side is the car is actually stiffer now than when it had the roof!
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Old April 29th, 2005, 10:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by vwcalbug@Apr 29 2005, 01:39 PM
jaraNson (haha big N)

i am amazed at how much knowledge you have!! Im half way through part 1....whens part 2 gunna be finished?? Im really interested because im prob going to make some fiberglass parts for my notch. I'll be keeping you in mind and looking for help. -JustinD
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
Part 2.....hhhhmmmmmm......it is kind of like a bunch of the project cars on this forum.......... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img]


think I started Part 2 four or so years ago. People have been bugging me to finish it. It is just not high enough on my priority list right now. will be even lower now that the warm weather is here......maybe late this year......but don't hold your breathe.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 11:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1slo3@Apr 29 2005, 01:43 PM
John, please espouse the history of your employment to the fellow volksrodders... you get to play with some pretty fascinating stuff and it is actually cool to see someone using their edumacation in the field they studied in [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif[/img]
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
As requested, I added some stuff in my Intro page for people to check out if they want to.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 11:21 AM   #16
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ummm 1slo3, i wan't talking about buying, haha. I would be interested in trying to make this stuff.

jaranson, with regards to thickness and what not. Are you saying if i attempted to make a c/f or g/f hood/decklid, i wouldn't really save much weight because the thickness i would have to lay the glass down?? Maybe its not worth the hassle...save 25 lbs upfront and 25 in the back...hmmmmit'd be cool though

do any supports need to be run underneath like done with sheetmetal? (bracing) or will the g/f and c/f be strong enough? -JustinD
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Old April 29th, 2005, 11:22 AM   #17
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My specialties are structural design using advanced, lightweight materials and concpetual design. I am currently in the Vehicle Design Department in Ford's Scientific Research Laboratory doing conceptual design work for advanced automotive interiors.My specialties are structural design using advanced, lightweight materials and concpetual design. I am currently in the Vehicle Design Department in Ford's Scientific Research Laboratory doing conceptual design work for advanced automotive interiors.

guys... i know if i had college to do over again, i would wanna do this kind of stuff!
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Old April 29th, 2005, 11:42 AM   #18
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Feels like Im back on the RX7 club forum. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img]
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Old April 29th, 2005, 11:53 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeschramm@Apr 29 2005, 11:42 AM
Feels like Im back on the RX7 club forum. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/funny.gif[/img]
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
is there something wrong with lightening a VW to make a VW haul ass? and beat the SHIT outta rx7's?? or anything in the way? I just want to go fast, hah [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Dancing.gif[/img] -JustinD
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Current Project: 2017cc w/ aj simms 40x35 heads, web 218, cb super race crank 78mm, cb supercase, 46mm aj simms kadrons, 1.25 rockers, aircooled SLR'd lifters.

Have it built out to the pistons and cylinders, ready for heads
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Old April 29th, 2005, 12:01 PM   #20
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No, nothing wrong with that. It was just a joke becouse every other post on the rx7 forum is about carbon fiber and "moulding" parts on to there cars. JUST A JOKE...... really. But as far as beating my RX7, well thats another story
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Old April 29th, 2005, 12:08 PM   #21
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You know, my friend put a CF hood on his GSR....the stock hood really didn't feel like it weighed much less....and the CF hood was actually pretty flexable. I wonder if he bought a "fake" one....damn import fuckers...-JustinD
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Current Project: 2017cc w/ aj simms 40x35 heads, web 218, cb super race crank 78mm, cb supercase, 46mm aj simms kadrons, 1.25 rockers, aircooled SLR'd lifters.

Have it built out to the pistons and cylinders, ready for heads
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Old April 29th, 2005, 12:10 PM   #22
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most hoods, shifter, gauges that you see that are suppose to be c/f but have a perfect stitch layout pattern really have a decal on them.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 12:17 PM   #23
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Alot of the carbon fiber hoods that Ive seen are an overlay -where the base is fiberglass. These are for looks and are reasonable priced. The real solid carbon parts are expensive. In my experence.
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Old April 29th, 2005, 12:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1slo3@Apr 29 2005, 04:10 PM
most hoods, shifter, gauges that you see that are suppose to be c/f but have a perfect stitch layout pattern really have a decal on them.
<div align="right">Quoted post</div>
Brian is right. Most of the carbon fiber look stuff out there is printed with a nice looking carbon composite graphic. It is difficult to get real carbon parts to look that nice. Not impossible....just not cheap or easy.

As for your friend's GSR hood, it could be a fake or it could be real and just made as light as possible and thus a bit flimsier than the stock hood. Modern steel hoods all have an inner reinforcement to make them stiffer. If you don't core the composite hood or add an inner reinforcement it will be flimsier feeling overall. The local stiffness will be higher, but the overall sectional stiffness could be less.

If you decide to make a hood or decklid, I think you could get a 50% weight save in your garage if you a careful with the materials, use epoxy instead of polyester, make a mold and use a vacuum bag process for the part. Without all that you will be lucky to save much weight. You will end up too thick and use too much resin.

Good part is that once you have made the mold it is easy to make multiple hoods/decklids for all your Type 3 friends. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old April 29th, 2005, 12:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeschramm@Apr 29 2005, 12:01 PM
No, nothing wrong with that. It was just a joke becouse every other post on the rx7 forum is about carbon fiber and "moulding" parts on to there cars. JUST A JOKE...... really. But as far as beating my RX7, well thats another story
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How fast was your seven? was it an fd?
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