SoCalook, Speedway & crossmembers... - Page 3 - Cut-Weld-Drive Forums

Ray-Dean · September 15th, 2006, 09:12 PM

VonHoffman: Sorry that it took me so long to get these to you. I have been kinda sick and still really busy. But here is the cowl steering set up I built...

VonHoffman · September 15th, 2006, 09:19 PM

Ray-Dean,

Thanks for the photos. What did you end up using for the pitman arm? Have you gotten any road time with that setup in place? If so, what was you're impression of how things handled?

I'm really considering this setup because it would free up a bit of room for a custom crossmember that gets the wheels positioned where I want them.

A couple of guys have mentioned an early bus steering box. Is there any particular reason you went with the specific unit you've used?

Thanks again for the help.

gowjobs · September 15th, 2006, 09:23 PM

BTW guys, Speedway Motors has a thin spacer/adapter that has the lip on it to support early Ford wheels on 5x5.5 hubs with a flat face. The retail for something like $19.99 ea. (that's USD for you Euro poofs)

Ray-Dean · September 15th, 2006, 09:24 PM

I have a slight bit of road time on it, but it only equals about 5 miles. Mostly test driving, and driving to and from the last show. I just got it all together 13 days ago. And 11 days ago, I took it all back apart to get it ready for a show next weekend.

From the short amount of driving done, it handles bumps extreamly well. No bump steer (even without shocks at this point). I need to adjust the caster, but other than that, I am pleased so far. I'll keep you posted as I start to chock up a few miles.

VonHoffman · September 16th, 2006, 07:35 AM

Ray-Dean,

Glad to hear that it handles okay. I appreciate the info and look forward to the updates.

31hillard · September 18th, 2006, 12:44 PM

i spoke to some of my rodder friends at the weekend and some rod builders and the problem they see with the volksrods with i beams is the hairpins are to straight and thats why the steering is light they said the best way to do it is bring the hairpin mounts into the car some more so there at more of an angle which would give you better steering.

**Unkl Ian** · September 18th, 2006, 02:09 PM

We need a "Sounds like Total Bullshit to me" Smilie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31hillard

i spoke to some of my rodder friends at the weekend and some rod builders and the problem they see with the volksrods with i beams is the hairpins are to straight and thats why the steering is light they said the best way to do it is bring the hairpin mounts into the car some more so there at more of an angle which would give you better steering.

dez · September 18th, 2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31hillard

i spoke to some of my rodder friends at the weekend and some rod builders and the problem they see with the volksrods with i beams is the hairpins are to straight and thats why the steering is light they said the best way to do it is bring the hairpin mounts into the car some more so there at more of an angle which would give you better steering.

dale, i know your a big young/inexperienced, but as ive told you in the past, you have to stop thinking other peoples opinions are fact. you need to realise steering has NOTHING to do with suspension, especially in this application.
hairpin angles wouldnt , and do not, matter a shit to anything for the difference in angle youre talking about here, and they certainly wouldnt effect steering.

the only real factors that effects how 'light' your steering is when retrofitting a I-beam front end is castor angle(easily changed), and the leverage ratio between the steering wheel and the road wheels.
you will typically have 3 ratios here-

steering box ratio- the worm and roller ratio of your steering box- also add in the size of your steering wheel here, if you change the size youve changed the overall ratio.

draglink ratio is the lever arm on each end of the draglink the same? if not, youve changed the steering ratio again (hence people finding different results when using a shorter type 3 pittman arm)

spindle steering arm ratio.- the length of the steering arm on the spindle against the length between
the kingpin pivot and the wheel centreline(fit wheels of a different offset and youve changed this)

combine the 3 to get your overall steering ratio.

the reson people get funny 'light' steering is the ratios of the stock bug steering box is incompatable with the spindle ratio of a traditional ford front end. you have 3 choices-

change the spindle ratio- apart from different offset wheels, the only option here is fab up different steering arm- not the best option.

change the steering box ratio- swop the steering box out for something more tried and tested with the ford front end. not that hard to do and probably the best option.

change the draglink ratio- fab a new, shorter pittman arm- not terribly hard to do......

steering geometry isnt that hard to understand, i wish people woukld stop trying to make it so.

VonHoffman · September 18th, 2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unkl Ian

We need a "Sounds like Total Bullshit to me" Smilie.

Funny you should mention that, Unkl, 'cause I was just discussing the issue with my father on the phone..he and I were thinkin' the same thing.

31Hillard - I'm not picking on your suggestion but there are a couple of reasons that I think the theory doesn't hold. The main reason is that the big thing to look at is the arc of motion that the radius rods allow the axle to travel within. Bumpsteer issues can be directly attributed to the axle and steering assemblies traveling in different arcs. Bumpsteer, however, is different from twitchy or quick steering.

A more likely culprit may be the caster angle. On a solid axle suspension, the recommended caster setting is 5 to 7 degrees. Positive caster keeps the wheels from wandering. An extreme example would be the setups seen on the old front engine dragsters. Obviously in this situation, a wandering car would be deadly!

A couple of other things to examine would be the steering box ratio, drag link ratio, pitman arm length and steering arm design. Erminger mentioned that he swapped in a type 3 pitman arm which helped his steering issues somewhat.

I'm no suspension guru, that's for sure, but I have done alot of reading on the subject and I've been fortunate enough to be friends with some very knowledgeable street rodders over the years. I guess I'm more of a sponge than a guru!

VonHoffman · September 18th, 2006, 02:56 PM

Jeez, I sure type slow...in the time it took me to type my post, Dez pretty much covered it!

Thanks for the input guys.

**Unkl Ian** · September 18th, 2006, 03:52 PM

If you compare the length of the typical streetrod pitman arm,
usually Vega,to the stock Beetle pitman arm,you'll probably find
the VW arm is longer,which makes the steering quicker.

erminger · September 18th, 2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unkl Ian

If you compare the length of the typical streetrod pitman arm,
usually Vega,to the stock Beetle pitman arm,you'll probably find
the VW arm is longer,which makes the steering quicker.

but, at the same time, if you shorten the pitman arm by any amount, there is also a reduction in range of lateral motion, which translates into reduced turning radius.

with changing to the shorter type 3 pitman arm, my tires no longer touch the radius rods as they once did.

(I can blip the throttle and toss the rear end around in tight spots)

hellfirejim · September 18th, 2006, 05:55 PM

Ok I am paying attention and learning. Now I have a question. does the type of steering make a differentce. I am refering to a regular box and pitman arm verses a cross linked steering?

Ok I lied I have a second question. With all the accumalated knowledge available here can we come up with some type of formula to figure out the proper links for these steering pieces???:

jim

bigguy · September 18th, 2006, 06:10 PM

different people have different feelings on different steering.some like the the simple some like the unique and some just follow others ideas that work.no one right answer.but glade you are taking in all the knowledge.

31hillard · September 19th, 2006, 07:01 AM

no offence but some times you guys can be dicks.i didnt say it was true im just saying something theres no need to gie smart ass answers!

mkparker · September 19th, 2006, 07:02 AM

I think what 31hillard may have been refering to is the front tires hitting the radius arms, thus reducing the turning radius. This is a well documented issue. If this isn't the case and he was just blathering about.....then...

VonHoffman · September 19th, 2006, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31hillard

no offence but some times you guys can be dicks.i didnt say it was true im just saying something theres no need to gie smart ass answers!

31hillard,

No offense intended..sorry if it might have come off the wrong way.

It's suprising to many folks that such a seemingly simple and old suspension design can be so complicated to setup. There are alot of things to consider and just as someone posted earlier, there are alot of different opinions regarding some of the nuances to getting them setup right. Dialogue is a good thing, even if it is spawned from a comment that might not technically be correct.

KK916 · September 19th, 2006, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unkl Ian

We need a "Sounds like Total Bullshit to me" Smilie.

mkparker · September 19th, 2006, 11:07 AM

KK, you were only 45 minutes late....with the BS smiley....